Empathy Driven Marketing with Krista Walsh

 

Catherine A. Wood  00:02

Hello and welcome back to another episode of the prosperous empath. We are starting off this year with this series on conscious entrepreneurship. And I’m really excited for our guest today crystal wall. She’s a copywriter, Christo, welcome.

 

Krista Walsh  00:18

Thank you so much, Catherine, I am excited to be here.

 

Catherine A. Wood  00:21

Happy to have you here. Why don’t you share a little bit about who you are and what you do?

 

Krista Walsh  00:26

Yeah, so, like you mentioned, I’m a copywriter, specifically, most of my work is website copywriting and SEO. So for those of you who aren’t familiar with the term of website copywriting, essentially, you’re launching a website, most people understand that you hire a website designer. But the designer is going to ask you to come in with all of the words that go on your website, right, which is what actually positions positions your services as what your ideal clients are looking for? Maybe not. So I am the one who writes all those words. There’s also quite a bit of website strategy that goes into that, like, what pages should we actually include? How should we display your services? Should we display all of them? Or some of them? Or one of them? How do we talk about pricing or not even list your pricing on there, all of those decisions, go into that strategy piece. And then finally, there’s the SEO element to so most people are interested in ranking on Google. And a big part of that is your copy on your website. So I’m helping you do that.

 

Catherine A. Wood  01:28

I think this is why we connected initially, because you signed up for my newsletter, and then I loved your email address. So I looked like peeked into who you were. And everything you talk about is has been such a journey for me in business. And I think so so much of what you do online business owners don’t understand is important or necessary until they’re well on their way or perhaps have already made some expensive mistakes that they then have to redo or fix or reinvest in. And it’s super valuable. I’m curious, how did you like how did you get into this industry? It feels really niche.

 

Krista Walsh  02:10

Yes, so I, the I’ll give you the really quick, like chronological story. I graduated college moved to Spain to teach English because I really didn’t want to get a nine to five essentially, was over there. And I had a lot of free time and I started freelancing. My degree is actually in book publishing because I went to like a liberal arts school where they had like niche degrees like that. And I started freelancing, doing some book publishing stuff, like editing books and doing some writing and then eventually, in the span of like five years, it’s just niche to niche to niche to each year kind of get narrower, or like, Okay, I’m gonna do copywriting next year. I’m like website copywriting and then I add the SEO piece, I really dial in the strategy piece. And now I am where I am now, which is website copywriting and SEO primarily for like service companies.

 

Catherine A. Wood  03:04

So cool. I think there’s like something about I don’t know, I tend to, I tend to, like, attract people into my world who have traveled who have cultural passion or love for travel or culture. So that’s, that’s awesome. I don’t think I knew that about

 

Krista Walsh  03:21

you. Yeah, that’s, I can see that about you though. I think yeah, you definitely have like a well traveled vibe. I mean,

 

Catherine A. Wood  03:29

we just got back from our three week, a three week trip to Europe. So I’m happy to be home but remembering like that, that remote work lifestyle that I used to do a lot more frequently. I want to talk about what it’s like being a copywriter, while also being an empath and a highly sensitive person and how you notice that impacts your work differently than perhaps other copywriters you’ve met along your journey. And

 

Krista Walsh  04:05

so I’ll start by saying that I think a lot of copywriters probably also identify as an empath, or similar like maybe maybe they’re just considering themselves introvert or something because a lot of writers are and copywriting is a career path that a lot of writers choose. But yeah, I can say personally, I think seeing over the last couple of years, the rise of like, empathy driven marketing has been interesting for me because everything people were saying were things that I was just like doing intuitively and not really thinking twice about it, you know? So it was interesting to see all this language rise up about it and it really made me realize that oh, no people. Many business owners are like people who maybe I think we’re I don’t know, just so concerned about quote unquote doing it right that they wanted to, like, follow these rules. And they weren’t tapping into that, like, the intention behind it. And they weren’t thinking in terms of like, how do I want to make people feel? Like really, and they were sort of like, I read somewhere that it’s like, your humanity kind of goes out the window when you’re so concerned about like, doing this paint by numbers sort of copywriting? I think just because you’re, you’re trying to do it. Right. Right. Like, you know. And so it’s been interesting to sort of see that conversation spring up. And I think it’s great. And I was excited to jump into it, too.

 

Catherine A. Wood  05:41

I love that. Like that idea. Empathy goes out the window, when we’re trying to do something, right. I feel the same way about sales. You know, like sometimes when the, the business owners that I’m trying to work with are really committed to growing their business and they’re struggling with closing their sale, and they just, no, they follow someone else’s strategy or rulebook or guidance on what to say or or, you know, like, what question to ask next, and people can feel their inauthenticity.

 

Krista Walsh  06:11

Yeah. And it’s so funny that you bring up sales because that’s, that’s totally how I relate to this conversation about like marketing and copywriting. Because I’ve also done that in sales because I, as an empath, I think a lot of empaths can relate to like not feeling like a natural salesperson or something. So when I first started out, I definitely took those workshops that like, gave you a script. And I like had conversations with people where I just like, read the script, because I was like, this is this is it, this is how you do sales, because I clearly don’t know how to do them. So I Yeah, it is this feeling like you completely, like, you think that what you know is like, not good enough are not going to work. So you completely like shut off your intuitive knowing or, or what you even think is right, in order to follow what someone else thinks is right. And there also are a lot of people still in the space of like marketing and sales actually telling you to do that. Like, I had a coach once told me like, Hey, you can iterate on these concepts. Like once you do them exactly, like once you do them verbatim like several times, then you’re allowed to like, innovate and like bring your own spin to it. So she was literally like telling me to like, shut off what I thought, you know, like, shut off that connection with the other person. And just like, exactly follow the script. And so I did, and it didn’t feel good. Really. I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it worked, you know, like it did work, because I’m like, I did make sales. But I felt achy about it. So,

 

Catherine A. Wood  07:45

so interesting. You use the term intuitive knowing I say that all the time. Krista, how did you make that shift in your we’re gonna get back to copywriting in a second. But this is so interesting. How did you make the switch from following someone else’s rhetoric to trusting and allowing your intuitive knowing to guide your sales process? Well, that’s

 

Krista Walsh  08:12

a hard question. I mean, honestly, I think it came out of a like larger, like, quote, unquote, project of mine to improve my self esteem in general. So seeking therapy, doing some self esteem exercises, and really just building up my confidence in general, and then that bled into everything. And because I think partly that’s what it is, when we’re sitting here and like we’re having to, we’re obsessed with like, following the rules and doing it right. It’s because we feel like, if we let ourselves drive, then we’re just going to do it completely wrong and mess everything up. And that’s like, totally how I felt. And so building up my confidence in general, I think, gave me the confidence to do something like no, I can just trust myself in a sales conversation, or in writing or in marketing or whatever, that whatever like, feels right to me inside probably is the right move.

 

Catherine A. Wood  09:13

Yeah, I really, I really relate with that. I always say that your inner world creates your outer experience. Yeah. And and I feel that a lot in business, you know, that when we’re really clear about who we are and what we believe in our values and what we stand for that it’s just so much easier to show up authentically in our conversations and marketing and business development as that kind of that full aligned version of ourselves.

 

Krista Walsh  09:45

Yeah, yeah. And for me, it totally started with just like, getting there as a person first, like, I mean, I spent a couple of years doing all of those business exercises like what are your business values like, stuff like that and And it always like nothing ever stuck for me. I think because, you know, I was coming at it from like, having done no, like personal healing as a person. And it’s like really hard then to like, come into a big business after that. The business that was just meat was somehow going to be like, a different version of who I was. So it really started for me with the with myself.

 

Catherine A. Wood  10:26

Absolutely. Let’s, let’s go back to something you mentioned. Because I You said you use the term empathy driven marketing? Can you define that? For my audience? I love that term.

 

Krista Walsh  10:39

Yeah, I can define it loosely. I don’t have the definition in front of me. But I you your definition? Sure. Okay. So I would say it’s, it’s approaching marketing through a lens of desiring to treat your clients, your readers like anybody who’s going to encounter your marketing with care, like humans. And with empathy, instead of primarily through a lens of whatever it takes to get the sale or get someone to sign up to my email list. When this email or click over to my blog.

 

Catherine A. Wood  11:18

I got like, the like, I almost got this like air of defensiveness, as you were saying that because of all the countless times I’ve been sold to 1015 times like, oh, do it now? No, you have to do it. Now. This is your last chance.

 

Krista Walsh  11:33

Yeah, and it’s empathy, empathy, because like, as a business owner, like I like feel a lot of pressure still, like, even like something like you’re writing an email and like, you’re like, well, I need people to open the email. So like, whatever subject line will work, you know, like, let me put re, like, you know, like the reply signifier in my subject line, because I know people will open that because it’ll look different. And it’ll like, make them think that it’s part of an ongoing conversation we’ve had, and then they’ll open my email, and then maybe they’ll buy my thing. And that’s, like, good for me as a business owner. But the empathy comes in when you realize like, well, how does that feel like when that happens to me, like, it feels sort of confusing at best. And at worst, like, maybe you’re gonna actually feel tricked or used, and it just doesn’t feel good. And so empathy driven marketing is thinking about it from that other side first, instead of just your side, and deciding, like making decisions based on that other side.

 

Catherine A. Wood  12:35

What a cool perspective, like, considering how your decisions or actions or the words that you use, will be received on the other end, versus looking through that self involved lens of, you know, will this create the intended result? Yeah, yeah. How do you I imagine that for you as a copywriter, right, like you were a third, a third party? Business Owner here, right? You’re contracted by your clients to write for their clients? How do you convey those values, those beliefs, and, I guess, enroll your clients in that perspective? Or do you?

 

Krista Walsh  13:23

Um, yeah, I think it starts with my messaging. So I, I rarely have anybody, like come into my space, like wanting to be a client who is like, lie to my clients to like, get them to buy or like are interested in any sort of like, super manipulative tactics. I think just because my marketing isn’t that way. So a lot of people come in understanding that’s a super like empathy driven process, really focused on their target clients less than less than, you know, them my client. And that’s what they’re interested in. That’s where they come in. So yeah, I wouldn’t say there’s like a huge amount of education that I have to do one on one, or like, enroll them into this idea. I think my messaging, you know, attracts people who already have those beliefs, too. And I think an increasing number of small business owners are really interested in that. Yeah.

 

Catherine A. Wood  14:22

Tell me your opinion on writing to pain points. Like, question Christmas.

 

Krista Walsh  14:32

It is, and my answer is, it’s not straightforward. So I sort of think there is this old advice that is like, right to pain points, like push on the pain points, like get those pain points and make people feel really bad so that they’re like, willing to spend money to fix it. And then there is this new advice that’s like, no, don’t talk about pain points. is really that much at all, because you don’t want to make people feel bad. And I fall somewhere in the middle. Like, I think it is possible to possible and sometimes like necessary to talk about pain points. In a way that doesn’t make people feel bad at all. Sometimes I phrased pain points in a different way, because that the idea of like pain points does, it just conjures up images of like people in pain, which sucks. So sometimes I say like, if you don’t like, like talking about pain points, just say like, you’re talking about the problems that you solve for people. And unless you’re like, a, like most service businesses, most coaches are solving problems. And, you know, like, exceptions, I usually see more in like product spaces, like, if you’re a luxury shoe company, you’re not necessarily solving a problem or addressing any pain points. But if you’re a coach, if you are any sort of service business, like even if you’re like a lawyer, like you’re very, like you’re in business, because you’re solving problems, and you do need to like talk about the problems that you solve. So people are aware that you can help them but you don’t need to do it in a way that is intentionally causing pain, like more pain for them.

 

Catherine A. Wood  16:13

You know, as you were saying that I was thinking about clients who, who are prospects who will reach out to me, and sometimes, you know, they are so focused on their problems. When we get on a call, and I don’t like starting there. Like, I think that oftentimes, people’s challenges or problems, or the reason that they reach out to a coach, but it’s not, it’s not why they say yes, right, it’s not what has them overcome the hurdle. And the fears that get in the way of investing in a high, a high ticket coach, you know, like, it’s when they get really enrolled in their vision and what they want, and they see a path forward as to how they can get there. And, you know, I do notice that sometimes people that they really need to start there that they really need to share where they’re at, and what’s really going on in their life so that they can create that those, those building blocks, right, like they can lay those planks forward. And we can do that together on a conversation. So I guess that has me curious, like, how do you? How do you convey that in your writing? How do you actually? How do you actually convey that ethically, or in an aligned way?

 

Krista Walsh  17:37

Yeah, I think you’re talking about like, what is supposed to happen right after the pain points conversation in any sort of marketing situation, which is you can’t just leave people with the pain point and say, like, well, I can solve it for you and like, expect them to just like immediately be like, great, you know, you’re talking about like, you also have to show them the other side of like, what happens with you like, what is your solution? Like? What is the process and get get them to get out of that place that you’re talking about, which is like a really negative space. And which I don’t think is the energy, you probably want people coming into calls, like, regardless of what your business is, with love, like just like, Oh, God, I’m so desperate. Right? And that is the danger of just like focusing too much on the the problems or the pain points, like you also I think, equally have to be like, get them to believe that there is a solution, right? And I’m using language, like get them to believe in stuff, but I’m not talking about manipulating them into some sort of lie. Like it’s the truth, like, you can help them because you’ve done it with other people. And so just just helping people see, you know, outside of that negative headspace can be really powerful too. And feel really good. You can feel like hope, right?

 

Catherine A. Wood  18:59

Absolutely. I mean, I always share with clients, you know, like the coaching will work to the degree that you believe it will. Because truly like our self belief dictates our actions, it dictates the level of activity and risk we’re willing to take on in order to achieve our goals. Like it’s it’s totally a consequence of our own beliefs and willingness.

 

Krista Walsh  19:25

Yeah, I would agree. Yeah.

 

Catherine A. Wood  19:31

So tell us like I’m curious. I’m curious like, how you how you, how you got where you are, like, I think that there’s a lot of really clear kind of guidance and training in terms of how to be an effective copywriter or you know, marketer and and I I think your approach is really unique and super values aligned for me. But I’m curious, like, how did you? How did you get here? Like, how did you gain so much clarity on your approach and your values? And I guess your willingness to kind of chart your own course.

 

Krista Walsh  20:25

So I think a lot of it has been intuitive. Versus like sitting down and like being like, Okay, here’s what I’m going to do. I think a lot of it has been like, really linked, like, I’m a big feelings person surprise being on this podcast. But yeah, there are things. There are things that just feel like violently wrong to me in the moment. And that’s like, very clear, you know, so I just like, will like pretty like easily, like, slide into doing something else. And it feels really fluid. What has been interesting, though, is seeing that there is a big desire for people who maybe aren’t writers, right? Like the way I think about sales, like for a while it like wasn’t intuitive, because that isn’t my like zone of genius. Like I’m not somebody who has like immediate rapport with people usually. But with writing, it is like my genius like I just like intuitively know how to do that. And so when I see that other people are like struggling in the same way with copywriting that I was with something like sales or like numbers or like finances, right, like things that aren’t like coming naturally to me. What I’ve been doing recently over the past year is like looking at my own body of work. And using that to like break them down into formulas. So like, I created the body of work intuitively, largely like I wasn’t following a formula, but that I’m like, seeing patterns and what I’ve done. So yeah, like last year, I wrote a pretty long article called seven strategies for writing about pain points ethically. And literally what I did is I looked through my body of work, and I noticed that I was doing the same sort of things like over and over again. And so then I did break them out into things that other people could follow, who maybe aren’t as like intuitive with the writing piece.

 

Catherine A. Wood  22:18

Everything you just said has been my exact same experience in coaching and building my business. Really even even down to the smallest detail. You said, like your experience isn’t that you build immediate rapport with people. And I feel the exact same way. Like I don’t think that I stand out from a crowd immediately. I think I’m like a slow burn. I think I’m like a very endearing and magnetic personality. But I don’t think I show all of me immediately, like I have to feel safe and comfortable. And, and wanting to kind of reveal all of me to people. And it’s usually not people I just meet it’s usually over time.

 

Krista Walsh  22:59

Yeah, exactly. That is my experience to a tee as well.

 

Catherine A. Wood  23:05

It’s cool, it’s cool. Like looking the idea of looking at your body of work and discovering what has worked for you. Because, you know, I used to be a coach trainer, and I would I trained coaches, and it was a lot on their mindset, like the mindset of how to build a business. But some of it also came down to like the brass tacks of, of what I what I do, and I think something that really worked for me was like, consistently asking people for reviews, and asking them to post them on some of the free. Like, just like the free sites, right, where people can search us on search for us online and, and read about reader reviews. And that’s kind of how I learned about SEO like was realizing that I’m showing up on Google and I’m showing up on Yelp. And you know, what’s going on here, and people are reaching out to me, I don’t even know. And then like, what is this? What is this SEO thing? But let’s let’s like talk about some of those strategies, because I think that that would be incredibly helpful for some of my readers who who are interested in growing their businesses more consciously and ethically.

 

Krista Walsh  24:20

Talk about SEO strategies. Talk about

 

Catherine A. Wood  24:22

no talk about those seven strategies that you mentioned.

 

Krista Walsh  24:25

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, I would love to. So the first one, I have named it state invalidate. So this is essentially I like to think about it like okay, if you if a friend is like venting to you about a problem, sometimes it doesn’t actually feel good if you’re like, okay, but like, let’s look at the bright side here, like right away, or if you try to, like downplay what they’re experiencing, like, oh, it’s not actually that bad. It’s okay. And I think, you know, I’ve done both of those things in conversation because I Think that’s going to help them feel better. But I don’t know, like eight out of 10 times what people actually are wanting in that situation is for you just to like, validate what they’re saying, like they say something to you, you repeat it back to them. And you’re and then you say, like, you know, that makes sense that you feel that way. Like, that situation does suck for you like it if you’re not crazy for feeling bad, or that is frustrating. And so you can do that in writing, too. So this is basically you would figure out what the real pain points are the problems that you’re solving are, you state them back to people, not in an exaggerated way, you are not doing this with the intention to like, make it seem worse than it really is like, think, with your friend, like if you friends venting, you’re not going to like sit there and tell them like you’re saying it’s bad. But it’s actually like, really bad. Like, you should be really scared. Like, you would never do that to somebody, right? You would just like reflect to them what they’ve told you. So this might require like interviewing your clients, this might require doing a survey and actually figuring out like, how bad do people think it is? And then just like, validate that back to them, like, it sounds like you’re dealing with this problem. And it makes sense that you you would be because the situation is this way, you know. And so it’s a very, like, just straightforward way of talking about pain points. And then of course, after this, it, I guess I’ll say this with all of these strategies after this, this can’t be the very end of your messaging, like you do have to have a portion where then you’re like, Okay, now introduce your service where you’re giving them the way out, right?

 

Catherine A. Wood  26:39

So you call this state and validate and in the world of coaching, like I call this listening to understand, rather than listening to respond,

 

Krista Walsh  26:51

yeah, totally, it’s the same. It’s still absolutely the same. Cool, I love it. And we know how to do this, like we I bring up the friends situation, because I feel like with some exceptions, like most people will do this naturally with friends, you know, or, at the very least, like you understand when you’re the one mentoring how you want someone to respond. And you can think about like, Why do I always go to this person to like, talk about a problem and not this other person. And it could be that one of them is validating you and the other person is, like always trying to immediately get you to see the silver lining, or is doing something else that doesn’t feel as good.

 

Catherine A. Wood  27:29

Yeah, I mean, even for me personally like this, this is this idea is so huge for me that at this point, like if I am not getting the empathetic response, or validation that I need, I will just continue asking for, like, you know, totally appreciate the advice. And like, what I really need is for you to just agree with me that this really sucks right now. And that, and particularly with my like mom, who hates me feeling bad for anything. You know, I’m just really, really mindful about asking for what I need, but not just from her, you know, like, I think also from our partners, who are some of the closest ones to us who don’t want to see us struggling, you know, but love it. Okay, what’s next? We could record a whole episode on like, literally, that single pair, I

 

Krista Walsh  28:29

think we yeah, we really could. And also kudos to you for asking for what you need. Because that is hard, that is hard and a vulnerable moment to be like, you’re not giving me the empathy that I actually came to you for. That’s hard to do. To me,

 

Catherine A. Wood  28:41

I mean, even just that, like even even that switching from Hey, you’re not giving me the empathy. To me, what I really need is, that alone was like another Mindset switch, like just being willing to not point the finger, but actually speak from my own experience and using eye language and looking through the lens of my needs. And my emotional well being right, like it’s just all layers and levels of empathy and empathy driven communication.

 

Krista Walsh  29:16

Yeah, I love that is why that’s why you’re probably such a good coach, because you’re so aware of language like that as you’re talking, even in emotional situations. And it’s hard. Well, we

 

Catherine A. Wood  29:27

can’t always say like, we can’t coach what we haven’t worked through person. Yeah.

 

Krista Walsh  29:32

Totally. Okay, back to you. What’s next? Number two, the second strategy I call whisk the blame away. So this is really similar to the first one where you’re still going to stay, and then you’re going to validate, but then you’re going to follow it up by actually giving like explicitly stating, hey, it’s not your fault, actually, that this bad thing is happening to you and offering the real reason that it’s happening. So You know, this comes into play. Like if you have knowledge that somebody who is stuck in negativity like doesn’t like can’t see like, and they’re blaming themselves for whatever’s going wrong in their business or whatever’s going wrong in their life related to your service. And you’re like, it’s actually it’s actually not all you like, there’s this bigger problem out there that you’re just kind of subject to, and I can help you get out of it. But it’s important to understand that it’s not your fault, and you shouldn’t be blaming yourself. So I find that’s a really helpful one for people who, if you notice that people are coming in with a lot of I really messed up, this is my problem, and you know, that it’s probably actually not their fault.

 

Catherine A. Wood  30:43

I mean, absolutely, I I noticed that as empaths and highly sensitive, that we often have a tendency to be givers. And you know, when quality of givers is that we’re often hyper responsible, that we take responsibility for more often than not breakdowns in relationship communication. tasks, like, so. Kind of. I love that, like, I love that, just that even that metaphor, like with the blame away in, in my world, we call that like normalizing like normalizing your experience, without making you or it wrong, or shaming or guilt. Yeah, cool. These are great. Like, I feel like there’s a it’s like, the copywriter perspective, the coach perspective about some really common themes that it sounds like we both face in our bodies of work?

 

Krista Walsh  31:44

Yeah, I love that. Because I think these are like universal ways of relating to people. But it can be helpful to see them in specific context, if you need, like, if it’s in an area that you struggle to, to naturally, I think it can be helpful to like, see it like, oh, no, here’s how it applies to this context, right? Yeah, totally.

 

Catherine A. Wood  32:03

What’s the third 1/3.

 

Krista Walsh  32:05

One is relate to your relate through your story. So this one, instead of like saying, like, here are your pain points, or here are your problems, you would just talk about your own story. So this one really only works if you’re in a service where you have actually been in the shoes of your target clients like exactly, and you got out of it. And usually it’s like, Hey, I was where you are, I figured out a way out of it through lots of trial and error, and blah, blah, it took me a while. And now I help other people get out of it to based on what I’ve learned. So if that’s your situation, which I think it is, for a lot of people, you can actually, you know, get around the talking directly to pain points by sharing your own story and saying you, don’t you and you can use some signifiers, like you could say, like many of you if you want to, but I don’t think you even have to, like I think you could just share your own story. And people will see themselves in it. And as a bonus, it it really drives home like your authority. And because it’s sharing how you like exactly the steps that you got to get out.

 

Catherine A. Wood  33:16

Oh, totally. Yeah, I agree with that. Like, I think that in, you know, in the coach perspective, we oftentimes don’t insert our own story and experience into our clients world so that they can truly get to be a mirror for their own, you know, what they’re saying their reflections. And sometimes I’m, like, really? struck by how impactful inserting like, oh, yeah, I totally get it. I’ve been there. Like, just like a simple validation normalization, like me to type of comment, like, how much of a difference that can make.

 

Krista Walsh  34:02

Right? Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, I wouldn’t like recommend, I mean, I’m not a coach, but probably it’s not recommended to do this, like in a coaching session. But if somebody like is experiencing your marketing in this way, before they become a client, I think it can help build trust that you actually can, like can truly understand you. And then when you do have those conversations, where you’re like, Oh, I totally get it. They have a trust that you do actually get it and you’re not just you know, saying that to say that.

 

Catherine A. Wood  34:32

Totally. What’s next.

 

Krista Walsh  34:36

Next one is to create safe distance. So this one is really just about switching the pronouns you use. So it’s super easy, which is why I like it. So sometimes. Like the example that I share in the blog post for this one is is an example that I wrote for a trauma therapist. Because the the pain points were kind of intense, because I was talking about trauma and like people’s past experiences with therapy, I felt weary about saying, like, you, reader are definitely experiencing this because I just didn’t want to do that for something like this serious. So instead of instead of saying you and using like you pronouns, I took it through the lens of like, hey, a lot of my clients experience this. They they feel this way, versus what they’ve experienced in the past. So just like from the you to the day can help people feel safely distant from it, and not like you’re trying to tell them how they feel. Like, you’re just like, here’s how a lot of people feel who end up coming to me. And that allows people to relate to that without feeling like you’re, you’re putting something on to them that is not actually theirs. And it potentially allows them to say, like I relate to this part, but not this part, right, and doesn’t make them feel like they have to like, check every single box that you’re talking about.

 

Catherine A. Wood  36:02

That’s such a cool example, because it almost feels more empathetic. Like it feels like a more considerate and kind approach to writing so that people can, you know, take what resonates and not, you know, like not make it all about them or think that like? Yeah, like they can just truly take the aspects that that feel true for them. Right? Yeah, exactly. Okay. I think we’re at number six, or we

 

Krista Walsh  36:43

think we’re number fives. Okay. Number five, flip the script. I think I skipped this one is why maybe we were if you had the list front. Yeah. So number five script flip the script. So this one is if you again, want to like avoid doing the the direct like pushing on pain points at all. Like if that doesn’t feel good for you or doesn’t feel aligned with your brand. And you really just want to focus on the positives. You can like elude oops, sorry, you can allude to the problems through what I call like flipping a script. So this might be more helpful. If I give an example, I think so. Like one example, like, let’s say, your product, your like problem that you’re solving or the pain point is that your clients product sales only happen through referrals and word of mouth so that they don’t actually have any aid, they don’t feel like they have agency to start scaling. So you could write it like that, like your product sales are only happening through referrals and word of mouth. So you don’t have any agency to scale. And that talks right, you could write it like that. Or you could flip it and write it like, you want to capitalize on your excellent product market fit your product sells itself through word of mouth, and now you want to reach a broader audience. So before your positioning, like the idea that your sales are only happening through referrals and word of mouth as a problem, and you’re sort of just flipping it and saying that’s actually a strength, it means you have excellent product market fit. But now that it’s selling itself through word of mouth, you want to do more like you have the success you want to do more. So instead of saying, like everything through the negative of like, here’s everything that’s going wrong, it’s like, okay, let’s look at what’s going right. And then let’s look at what do you want more of? Right. And that’s, that’s, that’s what your messaging revolves around.

 

Catherine A. Wood  38:38

I mean, I, I really love that one. Because, like, I notice, for a lot of the people that I work with, like we actually have emotional reactions to that downward spiral face and conversation. Like, you know, when, when we’re sold to in terms of what’s not working, or what our challenges and problems are, like, they’re like, I mean, even me, like I get defensive, like, you don’t know me, that’s not true for me, like, I know what you’re doing. Right? I think that that oftentimes creates lack of trust. Or, or even just like, immediate defensiveness with empaths and highly conscious, sensitive entrepreneurs.

 

Krista Walsh  39:26

Yeah, it totally can. I really don’t think great business partnerships happen when somebody is coming in with like a really negative headspace. Yeah. So yeah, anything you can do to help people like get out of that I think will be beneficial and effective.

 

Catherine A. Wood  39:44

Well, I we will totally link to this article in the show notes so people can continue reading the remaining strategies. But I think I as we wrap up here, I’m curious like, if people are interested in to implementing some of your work and writing more ethically and more consciously, on their own, like, where would you recommend they start? Like, how could they apply some of your teachings? Like it immediately

 

Krista Walsh  40:23

I mean, checking out this article would be a good place to start. I think if you’re wanting like, quote unquote formula to follow. In general, I think taking before you like write something, maybe, maybe try doing it without a formula, like if you can get there and just like, trust yourself and like, hey, you know, what does my client need to hear from me and forget about it sounded good. Forget about like, the flow of the words. I mean, people often think that copywriting is about like, words that sound good or like, being clever, and I really strenuously disagree, it’s all about the message. It’s all about what you’re actually saying. So yeah, I think it can be like freeing to think about in terms of that, like, you know, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t have to be even grammatically perfect. Like, it doesn’t have to sound good. It does not have to, like, sound like a particular personality, he doesn’t have to be funny. Just like, say what you mean, I think would be maybe my biggest piece of advice for people. Or I guess, in this case, like, right, what you mean, right.

 

Catherine A. Wood  41:41

I appreciate that reminder, and even like, even like add, like, humanly, you know, without jargon, or without kind of some of the, the, like, well polished names that we’ve learned or read about to describe what we’re doing or what we’re talking about, or what we’re teaching, right like to use, like real human language.

 

Krista Walsh  42:05

Yeah, totally. Another thing I’m constantly talking about, because I feel like more people need to do this is interview people. Like, if you’re struggling, and you’re like, I don’t actually like know what to say, and my copywriting or like, I’m trying to write the sales page, and it just like keeps coming out as like, jargon or I just like keep accidentally copying my competitors or something. That’s usually a sign that you haven’t done the legwork before writing that you need to in order to write something that comes from the heart. So I always recommend people interview their past clients, I do this for all of my clients. It’s like I insist on it. Because it’s so so important to go to the source and be like, how are people talking about their problems? How are they talking about you? How are they talking about their experience and their outcomes and their own language and then looking at those transcripts and seeing what comes up and you’ll you will be blown away by like the the amount of ideas that flood into your brain and like the competence that I will give you in order to to make copywriting feel more naturally more natural.

 

Catherine A. Wood  43:14

So useful. I am so excited to share our podcast today with my audience and even with some of my clients. As we wrap up today, like I love ending with a question I ask all my guests which which is what has supported you in becoming a prosperous empath?

 

Krista Walsh  43:32

Yeah, so I my answer is breathwork. So I love it. I meditation was never it for me. And then I discovered breathwork and I was like, oh, okay, this is for me. It is so calming to my nervous system. It is so clearing for my head. So that that would be what I would say I supported me.

 

Catherine A. Wood  43:56

That’s awesome. That’s we haven’t heard that one yet. Well, Krista, thank you so much for joining us today. And we will see you all next time. Yeah,

 

Krista Walsh  44:05

thank you so much.