Catherine and Laura Kline-Taylor on Selling vs. Enrollment

Catherine A. Wood  00:02

Hey, Laura, welcome to the podcast. Hey, good

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  00:05

to be with you.

Catherine A. Wood  00:07

So I know we were chatting before we hit record about what we want to talk about today. And I really appreciate kind of the vantage points that we’re bringing to this conversation. And I also want to be responsible for it because we’re both trained coaches. And we’re going to talk about selling, and versus enrollment. And clearly, we have a bit of a bias in terms of our own approach. So I want to be responsible for our bias. But I also want to take this time for it to like, have a deep dive chat with you about, about these ways of selling our services in business. That is something not only we train and coach in the mastermind, but it’s also something I think we both have some really strong opinions about.

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  00:58

Totally, yeah, and in the training of, of coming into being a coach with something to sell and a service. I’ve navigated like wanting to be good at sales, but also having to reinvent sort of how I relate to sales, because the one I started with from the early days wasn’t necessarily an empowered one. So I’ve had to re empower it, and then also negotiate enrollment, too. So

Catherine A. Wood  01:29

So let’s, let’s start there, like these terms, sales versus enrollment, like, what’s your take on what each is?

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  01:39

Yeah, so I like to think of sales is like, I’m holding up this thing, do you want this thing, here’s what it looks like, here’s what it’ll give you. And you can have this thing for this exchange, right of time, or money or, or something that a person out there would give me and I would give them this thing. And this thing in my work is coaching. So it’s a service, it’s an experience. But sales is really speaking about, like the features and the opportunity for the other person. And then they’re either like, sounds good, or no, I’m not buying today. So there’s a little bit more of like a transaction, I guess, let’s sales, perhaps then then enrollment where enrollments like a discovery process. And I like to think of enrollment as a conversation that presences, the person that I’m talking to about why they would engage with this thing and what the opportunity is, what’s the good stuff there? And maybe they don’t want it. But maybe it’s because they’re not yet enrolled in something. In other words, they’re not yet inspired by something that would make them greater or their life experience more like the one they’re seeking. So it’s really like, there’s no transaction that we’re aware of until we’re in a conversation. And that’s the discovery of what’s available.

Catherine A. Wood  03:20

Yeah, I like that. I like that clarification that a sales conversation is often a transactional exchange of time services or resources for something. And enrollment is an ongoing process and ongoing co creation collaboration. I think, from my vantage point, I think at the end of the day coaching is an ever ongoing enrollment conversation. I think that an effective coach is consistently enrolling their client in the self belief that they can become who they want, and they can create what they’re committed to. I think it’s like a just an ongoing process of in rolling. Yeah, of sort of self of being self enrolled in your value in your capability and your self belief and your self discipline. And then that you can fulfill on what it is that you say you want. I think it’s um it’s a it’s an art form to be honest.

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  04:36

It absolutely is. And I love that you said that because I was just thinking about how like, you know, if you had a bar of soap, like you wouldn’t need to enroll me in buying it you might tell me why like this soap is amazing, but I’m already so completely bought into why I need to use soap and want to use soap because there’s the self belief ingrained in me that like I Um, that washing myself is something I’m I’m committed to. But with coaching, there might be something that I’m not yet aware of all the reasons or the opportunities for myself. And so the art form is like, the coach inviting someone into the discovery process, and then discovering for why, for what, we’re going to do this thing here together, right, so it goes way beyond the use or the transaction of like a product or a thing. And it touches the things that I might not be able to see for myself without that partnership.

Catherine A. Wood  05:42

So let’s, I feel like the sounds really theoretical and might be hard to like grab ahold of for my audience. So let’s dive into some of our own experiences like being being sold to versus being enrolled in something and how the experience has gone and felt differently. Hmm. I mean, I am totally happy to jump in. So I, I think there’s many, I like to call them coach Saltus consultants who work with coaches or who perhaps call themselves coaches, but really have a consulting approach, which for me, is more of an advisory or strategic approach. I’ve never, I’ve never hired a coach Selten but I, I have hired high end, perhaps marketing consultants, who they really sold me on a solution, you know, I’ve shared some, some challenges with my, with my business and my lead generation and wanting to find, which don’t, we always like wanting to find this easy solution to market my business that was low effort and high conversions and happy to, you know, throw money at the problem. And they, they, he really sold me on themselves, like they, they knew how to sell, they sold me on their solution, they really thought my challenge in business, and they kind of sold me on all these bells and whistles of these ad campaigns that they were going to put in place and what the outcomes and the products would be. And I was like, smitten, right? Like I was totally smitten by this idea of someone else solving one of my biggest challenges in my business and ongoing nature in terms of my own time and energy commitment. And it was, it was a total disappointment like it, they they really didn’t deliver on what I had expected to be receiving. And I think something that I’ve learned with a lot of practice is that in any any of those ongoing relationships, I always try to provide ongoing feedback around what I expected and how it’s going and what I wanted versus what I’m receiving. So there really there’s that kind of collaboration. But even with that ongoing feedback, like they never, they never met me where I was. And and I also, I’m just mindful that like they never captured my voice. So I don’t I don’t think I think I really kind of just got sold by someone with some really great skills and and there was a total value misalignment.

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  08:50

I’m curious, you said what that they like, just totally got your problem and you are smitten. Have you experienced consultants or coach Sultans really focusing on or speaking to the pain points as a strategy for selling.

Catherine A. Wood  09:14

Think that. I mean, absolutely. I think that coach Sultan’s often are really intentional with their words and their language in a way that can really kind of draw you in. And I think what’s really so impactful for me is that when you’re sold on a consultant or a coach assaulted to solve a problem, then you’re enrolled more in the problem than you are in the future. And I think when you’re enrolled in a problem, you’re Often coming from that roblem orientation, like, what’s not working? What’s wrong? And you’re focused on that, like, this is this is an issue, this is the concern like this is, this is not okay. And that mindset doesn’t create forward momentum. Right? It also doesn’t create a whole lot of possibility or expansion, like when we’re in that very black or white, fixed mindset around what’s not working and what’s wrong, like we’re so focused on fixing it that that there’s not a lot of room for expansion and partnership. And, and we’re also typically more committed to the problem than the solution.

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  10:52

Yeah, you said enrolled in the problem, like when you’re working on the pain points or the problems, you’re in this, like, world view that the problem is the center. And I know you and I practice, and in the enrollment work that we do, we practice centering opportunity and future, that doesn’t start with anything wrong or anything to fix. And that’s sometimes like a mind shift. Because I think a lot of humans, you know, we’re hardwired to know, fear and to want improvements and slow incremental change, but but we’re about creating lasting change and transformation. And that has to come from a different place that we don’t know yet. And that it’s an art form.

Catherine A. Wood  11:43

Totally, and it has to come principally from yourself, not from this third party that you’re hiring, to try to find a solution or a breakthrough outside of yourself. Yeah, and, and I also just want to, like be really real here, because I’ve certainly marketed my services and programs in the past, like, specifically in my earlier years in business, based on how I saw other marketers, and coaches who are really just trained as marketers do it. And, and they, they certainly focused on this kind of pain point approach. And what I noticed, and even the types of clients that I would attract for those programs, is that they were much more committed to being kind of, I guess, in the coaching role, we call it like being done to, like they wanted to be told what to do, over given the solutions. And, if, and, or when they didn’t receive that kind of like pie in the sky lofty thing that they were promised or thought they were being promised, like it was a setup for disappointment, or a unhappy client experience. Because they weren’t being enrolled in themselves and in their own capacity to become and do what it would take in order to fulfill they were they were being sold someone else’s solution, or strategy or approach. But and this is, I think, some like a real challenge in the online business world is that a consultant, who, let’s be honest, may be more effective at sales. Not necessarily but but may unless they also have the coach skill set to support their clients in believing in themselves or in believing in their deserving this their worthiness, their capacity, trusting themselves sufficient to follow through on the strategies and approaches that they were being guided to do, then they’re still not going to fulfill like they’re still not going to achieve what they came for. And then they’re going to be disappointed and frustrated and unhappy. Because they were, you know, promised something, but But it’s kind of like, it’s like, gosh, I just think it’s a real setup. I think it’s a real setup when you know, these consultants, promise these big lofty goals but then don’t have the skill sets to support their clients and really doing that inner work in order to be able to follow through or even even discern, you know, what does work for them and what doesn’t work for them, and then take the action.

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  14:56

Yeah, when you say a lot of people just show up and Want to be quote done to me reminds me of the language that was used to sell me on a program that was consulting coaching, definitely professional and personal development. But the language they used was, this is a, we do it with you program. Nada, we do it for you program. And I liked that, because it involved me. But it still like, allowed me to need to be done with right to, like, require the expertise of this, this company in this group of people to like, know what I was doing. And so it was like a step in the direction of having me generate my own wisdom and vision and, and power. But I noticed for me, like I held back a little bit, because there was still an expertise that was needed, that wasn’t mine. And so, you know, whether it’s do it to me or for me or with me, I think it’s just missing the, the spaciousness that someone with like high level coach training will leave for the individual to like, name what is needed, and know and trust themselves through the process.

16:22

Mm hmm.

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  16:24

You know, go ahead. I was just noticing that we were sharing about examples when we were like sold to. And it might be cool also to hear, like times when we really got enrolled in something and it was like delightful and a cool experience instead of like, being coaches who enroll, but like, when did we get enrolled?

Catherine A. Wood  16:53

I mean, I, the first example that comes to mind is actually a coaching colleague of ours. And he and I trained together as coaches. And he, like, she kind of went into the program and jumping out of the gate was holding his services at a really high rate. And I think all of us were so impressed at him, because he had no, he had like a very high net worth network. And he’d worked in industries that had really kind of high price point levels of investment. So he was already really practiced in quoting high rates. And I always, I always used to tease him, because I just think he’s like a master enroller. Like, he really helps you. He has a gift for helping people believe in themselves at a degree outside their, their own realm of conscious awareness. And I remember, it was like, I don’t know, maybe the first, my first four months, six months, training as a coach with him. And, and he was doing so well in his business. And I was working so hard, and I started hadn’t started generating the results. And and I had this conversation with him, where, gosh, I don’t, I don’t think I’ll ever forget it. But he just painted this picture for me of my own skills as a coach in a way that I hadn’t really claimed. Yet as true for me, like I hadn’t really acknowledged for myself how skillful of a coach I was, and how, how powerful I could be in the reflections I offered. And he just reflected. He really, he reflected my skill set in a way that I could really, I could really grab hold of because it was very specific. It was based in kind of who he knew me to be, and stories and experiences he had had with me. And then he told me that I was going to double my coaching rate that I was worth, like, significantly higher than I’d been quoting. And he didn’t stop there. But he was like, and I have the perfect client who will absolutely hire you at this rate. And he referred someone from his network to me, and I, I’ve, I follow through on what he said and it was it was my first breakthrough in like in a in a money in the money, belief capacity. And it really started with his ability to help me believe in myself more than I was currently Eat, leaving myself as deserving a worthy or capable? Hmm,

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  20:06

I love this because I hear so many differences from like what a consultant would do one of the main ones I once I just heard, you said earlier that a consultant or even marketers are really like intentional with the language they use. And it’s about the service they provide, whereas this colleague you’re describing, was really powerful and masterful with his language. But it was all from a place of relationship, stuff he knew about you, because you were related to each other as humans, and then all of his powerful language was around you and your possibility, so much so that you were able to see that reflection, claim it as yours, and then show up to it and like, the next level, right, like, his his language was all like exposing what was there for you to see, instead of what was like, exposing what I have over here, right, for you to get on board with or lose.

Catherine A. Wood  21:08

Yeah, I mean, I love that you highlight that, because it’s so true. Like a, in a sales approach, a consultant sells you on their expertise on, on positioning themselves as the as the expert. And in an enrollment conversation, a coach supports you in enrolling yourself more in yourself, which is, which is in our world, right? Like? The the gosh, the approach for lasting change, and growth and transformation, right? Like it’s an ongoing process of continually enrolling yourself in who you are, and becoming more of who you already are. Because it’s not like I wasn’t already those things, right, I already was a really skillful coach. I just didn’t believe in myself yet that I was, it didn’t kind of believe it in my heart. And so that lack of believing it in my heart was a real, you know, set up for failure, or ongoing disappointment or self sabotage. Right. So I think, and I think that’s one of the gaps in in the selling versus in enrollment approach is that if you’re sold to on someone else’s strategy, and even if the strategy is extremely effective, results proven. And the consultant has the years of expertise to kind of backup her approach or strategy. Like, if you don’t actually believe that you’re deserving, or worthy, or that what she says is possible for you, is possible for you. Like if you don’t believe in your heart, that it’s possible for you, you will, you will self sabotage, you might do everything that she tells you to do. But if your self belief isn’t there, you’ll you’ll manifest the exact opposite of, of what you say you want. Right? You’ll manifest what you believe you’re deserving of having but not what you perhaps envisioned to be possible for yourself if you were willing to kind of lean into that vulnerability because it’s so vulnerable to being what we want. And when you’re sold to, and we’re sold on someone else, we don’t actually have to.

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  23:53

Yeah, it has me think about like the people who are listening or who come across this podcast and the mastermind and the self belief that’s created in their businesses. And then what’s possible for their clients, right, like the ripple effect of like, a person enrolled in themselves, whether it’s because they have a service to offer, or a child to raise, or some mission to fulfill on like, a person enrolled in themselves creates the thing that they want so much more organically, and and I think people feel that, like, it’s hard to almost put words to but I think just like you can feel when you’re being sold to, you can feel when there’s like a current to be swept into, and it just creates more it’s so generative,

Catherine A. Wood  24:50

totally, and and you can also feel when someone else is enrolled in your vision, right like you can feel when someone else OS is genuinely excited about what you want to create in the world, or what vision you want to bring to life, or what dream you want to claim for yourself. And when you can, when you feel like someone else’s genuine, open hearted excitement in you, like I think that I think that is enrolling, right? Like, and I think we see this so often in the mastermind, right? It’s like when when we reflect each other’s possibility and what we see as available for one another in the mastermind. Like, it creates this ripple, this kind of this heart opening ripple effect of Oh, wow. Maybe that is possible for me like, oh, wow, maybe I can have that. Oh, wow. Like, they believe I can do that. Maybe I can like it just treats this beautiful. I do think it’s like a heart opening word ball effect.

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  26:00

Yeah, and when other people can give voice to a sensation that I have, or hope that really lands, it feels like the secret sauce to creating like, I haven’t figured out how to articulate it yet. But somebody else can simply by being in my presence. And so then there’s that like exponential growth that comes simply by being together and speaking about what’s possible.

Catherine A. Wood  26:31

So this is I know, this is something that we chat a lot about in our mastermind. And it’s it’s the idea that, like, the more self enrolled, we are in ourselves, the more we believe in the capacity of our own work and our impact and our gifts, the more naturally, we can enroll others in what’s possible for them, as well as in trusting us as their partners to help them in fulfilling on what they want. And I just like sense that our audience would love to, would love to hear how like, you know, from our own vantage points, like how do we enroll ourselves in ourselves? How do we grow our own self belief, so that we can really be attached in in enrollment conversations with potential clients or humans for our services and our programs and offerings?

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  27:38

I’ll jump in one thing I do. One how for staying enrolled in myself is that I will have the answer for myself posted somewhere written somewhere saved somewhere. Or I will have asked a colleague to, to remember this answer for me when I asked, because I know I’m going to forget or lose sight of the bigger picture. And I’m going to get caught up in just the day to day of life. And so it has to be somewhere outside of me. For me to see Oh, right. I’m leaving my office to go down and serve my kids dinner. Because there’s something bigger for me in this than serving dinner. I have like beautiful photos of our family, the adventures that I see that we’re going to be going on. And these things that are greater than just this moment. Or I’ll have colleagues say like, yeah, there’s like 16 women out there who really are excited about your services, you already said where they live, go call them or where they spend time go connect with them. So having visuals and people kind of poised to remind me when I forget is fundamental.

Catherine A. Wood  29:01

Yeah, I love that. Well, this is something I feel like I talk about all the time. And it’s still as true today as it was a decade ago, but it’s resourcing myself and really focusing on my own nervous system regulation because I noticed that when I show up to a conversation in business, or for a podcast interview or with a potential client, or with anything I really want like if my nervous system is regulated, if I’m resourced if I’m if I feel grounded and centered and having taken care of myself, then I am so much more capable of separating myself and my self value or my self worth from the conversation at hand. I can just, I can just be authentic, I can be unattached. And I can be open to what’s possible. And I and I really love that. And I think that being unattached is something that so many, so many empathic entrepreneurs struggle with because of how deeply we care, and how much we want to be of support, and give and contribute. And I think that’s the single practice that’s made the biggest difference for me in letting go of my own attachment, after prioritizing my nervous system after taking care of myself, making sure I show up resourced to any call or conversation is, is being fully authentic. In in just like putting my heart on loudspeaker, like, if I really want to work with someone, like just authentically, let them know, and share with them, why I would love to work with them, and why I’m so excited about it. And also let them know that like, I really envision us working together at some point. So if it’s not today, like I’m totally open to the possibility of when it may happen, if it does happen, and you know, like, whatever you choose is okay, and meaning it. But I noticed that it’s so much easier to mean what I say, when I actually allow myself to say what I mean,

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  31:43

beautiful as an empath, sometimes I sense that people are worried about a cell. And so one of the practices that is supported me is just practicing inviting permission and getting consent, before shifting into any new conversation. So I call it creating the listening. Like, Hey, is it okay? If we shift into a conversation about me sharing everything I’m excited about doing together? And then if they’re like, Yeah, then I can put down all of my mind chatter or concern about what they may be thinking or worrying about? Because they’ve agreed, or, okay, is it okay, if you just tell me like, all of your fears right now? And then we know, we’re in a fear based conversation? And there’s no question and it just allows for so much more of the authenticity I think you’re speaking about.

Catherine A. Wood  32:45

Yeah, and I think I think that, that reminder that getting permission along the way, permission to share what we see, to reflect what we heard, to extend an invitation if it feels aligned, like it, it creates that that safety, that partnership, that kind of partnership, to do so. Which can feel just so much more like you’re in it together, rather than being done to or being sold to, or, or, or, or. Well, let’s, as we wrap up here, like I think that how we enroll other people in what we see for them is it extends like so far beyond coaching, right? Like, I know, you’re a mom, I’m looking forward to becoming a mom, but I think it affects every aspect of life. So I’m curious. Yeah, like what are your favorite tools, questions, practices in in, in enrolling others?

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  34:05

And enrolling others one of my favorite practices is prioritizing my curiosity over my opinion. Like I regularly invite myself because I love having an opinion and like waxing poetic about what I think like my intellectual space is so delightful to be in. And I noticed it’s not always enrolling. And so when I shift to being curious whether it’s about something, I’m up to something they’re up to specifically, it just invites more of that partnership and that safety. So I regularly practice putting down what I know and picking up what I don’t and service of like creating something new together. That’s probably my biggest practice in enrolling in relationship in general.

Catherine A. Wood  34:57

Oh, that’s gorgeous, like putting being willing to put down on what you know. So much easier said than done, especially in those like, particularly important relationships in our lives. Yeah. I noticed for me over the years, it’s, it’s had a lot more to do with my own internal excitement meter. Like, for instance, I think people often seek out coaches when something’s not working, and they’re more committed to change than they are for things to continue going the way they go. And that’s not why people hire coaches, I feel like people hire coaches, because they get more excited and what they want, then in all the reasons why they can’t have it. And oftentimes, if we’re not taking the leadership in those enrollment conversations, we can stay in those kinds of low vibe, low energy conversations around what’s not working, and why it’s not working, and all the reasons and excuses and explanations and that is so not enrolling. So I, I always like, I always tune in, like energetically, like how excited do I feel in this conversation? How enrolled Am I in their vision? Like, how like, dripping with excitement do I feel about they want about what they want? Because as an empath, right like I can, I can trust that if I’m not genuinely excited about what they want. Like if I’m not enrolled in the possibility of their dream, then they likely aren’t either, because I’m just a mirror for what they’re saying. And it’s not just a mirror for what they’re saying. But it’s also a mirror for who they’re being like what energy they’re bringing, especially as Empath owners love it. Oh, man. Well, I get I appreciate this conversation. It feels like a really new invitation for heart centered entrepreneurs to to market themselves differently to have open hearted conversations with their clients and clients to be with an enrollment approach. Yeah,

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  37:33

yeah, and yes to sell but not to sell with out the enrollment piece as well.

Catherine A. Wood  37:40

Yeah, yeah, let’s let’s invite a reframe like, what if what if selling our services could be an invitation to bash supporting the clients that we serve and the clients that we’re meant to serve in believing in themselves sufficiently to follow through on a lot of what they already likely know others for them to do? You’re here. Thank you for this. This has been delicious.

Laura Kline-Taylor Roethel  38:17

I love this