Mastering Everyday Diplomacy as an Empath with Jane Lawicki

Catherine A. Wood 09:43
Hi Jane, welcome to the podcast. Good morning.

Jane Lawicki 10:05
Good morning.

Catherine A. Wood 10:06
I I know we were introduced by a mutual friend, Susan lavrick, and she and I had an amazing conversation on the podcast recently about communication, and I’m so excited to continue in that vein with you today, so maybe by way of getting us started, I’d love for you to introduce us and share your pronouns and a little bit about your story. I think that we all learn best through through hearing and seeing ourselves in each other’s stories,

Jane Lawicki 10:34
right? Thank you so much. My name is Jane luicky. My pronouns are she and her. I’m a journalist, communication strategist and a consultant. I own my own consultancy, jft loft, after working more than 4030 years, excuse me, the nonprofit sector. And I named my company jft loft because I actually work in a loft above our garage, which holds my husband’s beloved 1982 Jeep Scrambler. He gets the garage. I get the loft. So I started my career as a writer at the United Nations, but my most recent role was to oversee a team of 30 senior professionals who as volunteers, represented Rotary International to organizations such as the United Nations, the European Union, the Organization of American States, and the World Bank, those volunteer leaders were and are extraordinary diplomats. So it’s a pleasure to be here and to join you as a highly sensitive, caring, people oriented person.

Catherine A. Wood 11:34
I’m so happy to have you here. And for our listeners who aren’t, kind of getting this snapshot of Jane’s background. She’s actually joining us today from her loft, and there’s these beautiful wooden beams, and this like lovely lantern. So it’s such a beautiful it’s like such a vibe. And I’m recording our episode today from my husband’s office because of something I shared with Jane prior to us getting kicked off that my I have company, and my dogs are sure to cause mayhem when the company wakes up. So yeah, so really thrilled to have you here, Jane and and I’m not sure if I shared this with you, but I, during college, worked at the UN I did an internship under Mayor Bloomberg for his small business department. Gosh, I don’t even remember it was so long ago, but I have, I don’t know if we would have been there during the similar timeframe, but I love that idea of just kind of meeting different people in your in your world and in business at different seasons, and knowing that perhaps you crossed paths in different chapters and periods of life,

Jane Lawicki 12:46
simply, I hope so. I do know that there’s an example of I was working for the Institute of International Education as well at one period, and we had a conference and a seminar in Chicago. Again, we’re based in Chicago, outside of Chicago, and I think I met Barack Obama when he was a community organizer. And I wish I would have kept that, that relationship up before I had, had let it pass, as in the busyness of life,

Catherine A. Wood 13:10
that’s amazing. Those are some of my favorite stories of his from his books or during his community organizing days. Okay, well, let’s jump in, because we’re going to talk about everyday diplomacy and what that means to you. And I love the idea of being an everyday diplomat as a highly sensitive Empath and and I’m curious. I actually, I’m curious, what your journey to distinguishing yourself as an empath was because you come from a corporate a communications, a strategy background. How did empathy play into your career? And when did you discover you were an empath?

Jane Lawicki 13:58
For me, I’ve been told on more than one occasion that I’m a natural diplomat, and I think it worked to my advantage as a communications person, because I naturally connect with people. I enjoy people. And it’s been I’ve been told that I will meet someone for the first time and start a conversation, and before I know what we’re talking about, things we have in common. And I ask a lot of questions. I’m naturally curious. And I think those type of traits, along with being really sensitive to understand where that person is coming from, in some ways, and and to kind of match their energy when I can, I think really helped. It was an asset in many ways, to my work, I’d say also at times, was a challenge, because then, if it’s a brief encounter, how do you kind of close the conversation down? Because if I can go quickly deep, I need to quickly be able to pull out if it’s a five minute acquaintance. So if that makes. Sense. I

Catherine A. Wood 15:01
mean, that makes perfect sense to me, and I would love to hear how you do that. How do you quickly disengage from a deep conversation? I’m sure I could use some tips there.

Jane Lawicki 15:14
I have learned the first the first step to that is knowing that I’ve gotten myself into that deep conversation and recognizing like, Oh, this is I have to catch a train in two minutes. How do I? How do I kind of end this down? And so sometimes there’s phrases that you can use, like, I really would love to continue this conversation, but I have to run, unfortunately, those kind of simple phrases that work. But I think it’s, in some ways, self awareness. I think as empaths, as highly sensitive people, we need to be very self aware, not only of our surroundings and others, but of where we are and where we come from.

Catherine A. Wood 15:52
Yeah. I mean, I I really appreciate that so. So has empathy always been a part of a distinguished part of your work? Like when you were in your prior career, were you as clear of your empathic tendencies and did? And were they regulated as well? Because it sounds like you’re you’re well, oh, what’s the word I’m looking for? Like that, you kind of self regulate well in terms of managing your attunement and your sensitivity.

Jane Lawicki 16:24
You know, I think that that kind of comes or evolves from having experiences where you had to pay the price in some ways, of maybe being too sensitive to understanding. I can think of several experiences. Once I was organizing a bicycle trip for some friends, and I was very excited about it. People were excited about it, but I suddenly realized all the work became mine, because I had sensed everyone’s excitement, and I became the de facto leader of this particular weekend event. And as I tried to I don’t think I took the time to recognize other people, needed to bring things to the table, and so I ended up doing a lot of the work itself. And that experience really taught me in some many ways, that if I’m not aware of my limits and my again, my desire to enjoy other people and please other people. In some ways, if I’m not aware of the consequences of that, I end up paying those consequences. So I think those kind of experience, and experiences, in many ways, taught me to have boundaries in a healthy, hopefully healthy, hopefully life giving manner for everyone.

Catherine A. Wood 17:42
Adam Grant distinguishes that fine line as the difference between being an other ish giver versus being a selfless giver, this idea that we can give while keeping our ultimate goals and intentions in mind, versus giving giving and giving at the expense of our own needs and our own well being. And I think that that’s such a common learning on the journey to becoming a prosperous empath. How do we how do we give while also opening ourselves up to receive and be contributed to by by others and and not necessarily feel taken advantage of or exhausted by our giving efforts and by our love for it.

Jane Lawicki 18:29
I think that’s true, and I think that’s something that you know, needing to recognize our own value, and recognizing that we give value and that there are times when we have to limit or pull back our value for our own self care and our own sense of balance, sense of right or wrong, sense of wanting to give and care about others before resentment creeps in.

Catherine A. Wood 19:06
Well, I am sensing we’re just kind of expanding on some of the some of the positives and negatives of everyday diplomacy, and what that looks like in in your journey, in your career. And I’m wondering, are there more, more examples to touch upon here, more ways in which you’ve kind of learned the art of everyday diplomacy while also walking that fine line.

Jane Lawicki 19:36
We think in many ways, it’s learning. And I think I’ve had more than one experience. I think we all have probably had some experiences where we’ve taken on too much work and we recognize, oops, I’m a little bit deeper than I should be or would be, and learning how to kind of dig out from that. I think again, as an example, I think I can think of more than one experience where I had agreed to something to. And then something else came up. There was a higher priority. And then a third thing came up, which is a higher priority. And now I had to backtrack in some ways, to identify and prioritize. I think prioritizing is very important as well, to say I can do this and this, but now I can’t do that, so I think scheduling, timing is really important for us, so that we also make sure that we have time to refresh and to rebalance, if you will. So whereas I don’t want to necessarily give, can’t really give a specific example of having allowed myself to be overloaded. I need to then, I think perhaps too many times of that experience, I’ve learned to really have to catch it firmer, sooner. There’s a little phrase about a little analogy of catching the tiger by the tail. First you might be chasing the tiger, whatever that Tiger is, and eventually you catch it by the tail. And then you learn, because you’ve learned how to catch the tiger, you learn to catch it by the leg, and then you learn, eventually to catch it by the neck, so that that Tiger is no longer fearsome or at risk of eating you.

Catherine A. Wood 21:23
Are there any indicators when you’re like for you personally? What are the signs when you’re catching it by the leg, versus the tail, versus the neck?

Jane Lawicki 21:33
I think identifying that there’s a tiger out there as the first I think that’s that’s something that I would say, seeing that, I think again, that recognition, that first step acknowledgement that, oh, there’s a tiger in the room, and that recognizing that, and then recognizing what can I do? And I think that catching it by the by the tail or the leg or the neck, is also timing, so that, you know, if I found myself already, I’m overwhelmed with this. I might be it might be too late to catch it by the neck, but I can still possibly get it by the tail. And the signs are more, I think, more kind of my own internal indicator. You know, where am I finding my resentment levels or my anxiety levels raising? So and if that’s so, if I’m feeling resentful about something, what exactly am I feeling resentful about? If I’m anxious, what exactly am I feeling anxious about? And then is there anything I can do this moment, this day, to address those uncomfortable emotions?

Catherine A. Wood 22:40
I mean, as you’re speaking, I think I’m appreciating how much that timing is the consequence of our own level of self awareness and also attunement with our nervous system, you know, like I, I know for me personally, like I have this, just this default nature to be helpful and want to respond to people’s questions and want to be supportive. And sometimes I notice that I’m better at being regulated with people I don’t know versus people I know well. So when people who are close to me ask me questions that I perhaps don’t want to answer or talk about, you know, whether it’s finances or family or or even marriage, you know, like, I think the more you grow in your marriage, the more personal it becomes, and the more, the less inclined I am to talk about it with anyone else. You know, this is for my husband and I and and I noticed still, that there’s this tendency when people close to me ask me a probing question, my default is to respond. And then, then there’s a consequence of noticing that discomfort after the fact. But if I can, I think the timing piece and anticipating, oh, it’s, you know, it’s possible they’re going to ask me about this today, or it’s possible we might talk about this and I don’t have to. And how can I kind of create that sense of self, permission and distance to give myself a little more timing to respond intentionally or with purpose, versus from this place of automaticity or being a giver,

Jane Lawicki 24:27
yes. And I think we’ve all caught, been caught off guard with those kind of probing questions, and I have learned just a few little tricks, like saying oh and that oh buys me two or three seconds. Or that’s an interesting question. Again, I might buy you four or five seconds, but in some ways, and then having some, again, at that advanced planning, in some ways, of having a suitable approach to saying, you know, it’s something I’m not really comfortable speaking about right now. Or, you know, let me, let me. Think about it. Let me get it back to you. Those kind of statements are often helpful in in buying some time if you, if you don’t yet have a prepared, prepared response. And I also want to say, I’m sorry, no, I just want to say that I don’t want to feel like everything is a prepared response, but it’s, it’s kind of more integrated within yourself, so you can be, you know, spontaneous in the moment, but you’re but you know where you stand. Mm,

Catherine A. Wood 25:26
hmm. Something one of my teachers always said is, keep your purpose in your back pocket. And I just love that idea that if we’re not being on purpose, we’re being off purpose. So it’s not necessarily about being kind of, you know, having a planned statement for everything, but it is being connected with our greater goal or intention or purpose for a conversation or an engagement or a business opportunity. And I think as empaths, that’s something that highly resonates with us because we are so purpose oriented. And I think it is much easier to be to again coming back to that other ish giver, that it is so much easier to be internally resourced when we’re connected with our greater what for.

Jane Lawicki 26:19
I think that kind of the first things first, in some ways, having a sense of, again, I love that idea of having your purpose in your back pocket. So that does this conversation, is it aligned with where I’m going? Or, if not, how do I readjust either myself or the situation or the conversation, it’s also possible to change the topic. That’s something I haven’t quite mastered. But the idea of, if you’re in a conversation and it doesn’t quite feel right in some ways, that sense of kind of knowing where the conversation is, to possibly change the topic and ask a different question.

Catherine A. Wood 27:05
Yeah, I think that’s a great I think that’s a great tip. Yeah, absolutely. Well, so I’m appreciating that we’ve been talking about this conversation. I mean, I shared examples that are very personal, but I think that this also really relates through the professional lens around how we can leverage some of our communications gifts as empaths, while also honoring our our tendencies towards being of service and wanting to contribute. So you said something in our in our prior conversation that I really loved, and it was about how to how to say how to say yes and how to say no, how to say yes to an opportunity, and how to say no. I think you called it the gracious No, which I think as empaths, we can all use a lot more practice employing the gracious No. So will you share a bit more about what that is for you and and I’m also just appreciating your smile, so I’m imagining there’s some stories around how you learned the art of the gracious No.

Jane Lawicki 28:20
Well, I think the gracious yes is relatively easy for all of us, highly sensitive empaths. We just can get on board relatively easily. The gracious No, I think, is important to be able to to recognize, again, that kind of self awareness is key to really starting the gracious No, and to recognize, first of all, foremost, if you have to say no, if possible, to say it as soon as possible and as most appropriately as possible. So if someone asks you to do something, and that’s pretty easy, you just simply say, Oh, I’m sorry I can’t I’m going to be busy. But for those more delicate situations, where maybe again, as we want to be able to please someone, we want to be able to say yes, but we know that we really can’t or won’t, because it’s not really going to fit into our purpose in our back pocket, to before you even say no, to be able to prepare an alternative. So if, for example, from a business perspective, a prospective client wants to ask you to reduce your fee rather than adjusting that in some ways, you really simply say, No, I’m really sorry. This is right now what what is is required, but then to provide alternatives for you, so for that person. So for example, you might have some resources for them that they can look at. You might direct them to other resources or other people, possibly you you want to be able, in the gracious know, to provide alternatives for that individual so that that person can feel. Feel like they’ve been heard and recognized and and providing some service to them, without in any way hurting yourself as well. So I found that to be full in my work, particularly as I worked with volunteers and other organizations when I couldn’t say yes for whatever reason, whether it wasn’t fit that wasn’t fitting into our structure, I would have to kind of work a little bit, do some homework, maybe even before I got back to the person with alternative A, B or C. So

Catherine A. Wood 30:48
see something I say a lot in business, is this idea that we’re in the business of relationships. And I love this idea of how meeting people’s requests with the gracious no opens the door for continued relationships. And I don’t know about your line of work, but I know for me, like I’m oftentimes in relationship with folks for a number of years before they become a yes to working with me or signing up for one of my masterminds, or, or, or, or, you know, you still host retreats, and you just never know to what someone is going to be a yes, but a gracious No. I hear just how, how it’s really an off ramp from not right now,

Jane Lawicki 31:38
exactly. And I like that idea of not right now, maybe another time, you know and so that you you offer continued relationship, it’s a bump versus a stop.

Catherine A. Wood 31:55
So something I’m appreciating this conversation is that this feels really important to you, like that, this is a topic that really matters to you. And I notice I’m curious why.

Jane Lawicki 32:11
I think because it has, it’s part of my nature, again, that that empathic nature, so it’s part of my nature. But then, how have I learned to survive for my own health and well being, while allowing my nature to continue? So I’m just thinking, you know, I’ve learned a lot. I’ve had as we all have had some fires in our background, because I didn’t necessarily set a boundary early on. I paid the price for it, and so I think for me, it’s been a growing process, an evolving process, to recognize that I have value, and others have value. And where can we meet for a win, win situation? I think if trying to provide an example, I certainly have had more than one experience where someone was a yesno person or a lose win person, a zero sum game type of situation, and it was either they win and you lose, or you win and they lose, and that confrontation never really felt right with me. So working at trying to maybe that experience of looking for a win, win, where can I find a win win? What small win, win. Can I? Can I look for to keep the relationship prickling along at some at some point, there are times when we have to say no, hopefully graciously, and then walk away. And that’s can be painful, I think, particularly for us as empaths, that we want to be able to be pleasing, and when we know that we can’t or won’t or shouldn’t, there’s a little bit of a grief that goes with that.

Catherine A. Wood 34:11
I absolutely hear that. I think, as empaths, we often attract those giver, taker, partnerships and relationships in the beginning, and we often set ourselves up for these Win, Lose dynamics, and then it it so often is through our own learned experience that we can come back to our nature and we can come back to Our values. And I think one really prominent value of of empaths is that we are committed to win, wins and and there is kind of this domino effect of how a giver succeeds, and that they do create this duplicative impact where, where everyone gets to win. And everyone gets to benefit. And I love looking at this through the lens of everyday diplomacy, because, because I think there is that, that value alignment there.

Jane Lawicki 35:15
Yes, I think so. And I think also we have to remember that if there does become a place where we have to let go or walk away. It doesn’t mean that we don’t care, but it means that we recognize we can’t meet that goal, that request, or we can’t do it for someone else. And I think that kind of recognizing that I still care, but the cost is too high for you or for me, and so I have to put a boundary here in some ways again, hopefully graciously, hopefully loving, with the intent that there Hopefully might be a change relationship in the future.

Catherine A. Wood 36:02
I love what you said there, because I think that there’s such an important element there around we still care. And I think that you know, one of the challenges of empaths is learning to be responsible for that care, while also tending to our our own to tending to our needs, right, not, not perhaps allowing ourselves to be taken advantage of. And I think that as we’re doing this work of becoming everyday diplomats and becoming more effective communicators, learning to include that care in the conversation can make whatever we need to communicate a lot easier. And so something I often and I’m so curious to hear your thoughts on this, but something I often offer clients is the reminder or the invitation to put your process on loudspeaker. So for instance, like, hey, there’s something I need to communicate to you, and I notice it’s giving me a little of anxiety. Or I’m I’m a little nervous to share what I have to say. Or, you know, I have to decline this invitation, and it makes me really uncomfortable. And here’s what I want you to know, or here’s what I want to say. I think I noticed that bringing that care into the conversation allows it to be, I don’t know, more authentic, more more honoring ourselves versus kind of operating on top of all the sensitivity, I’m curious what your thoughts are on that

Jane Lawicki 37:45
it’s interesting, and I think that would work for some people, perhaps fellow empaths, or others who are more Karen. But I think if we do look at that dynamic, where it might be a win lose perspective, or, you know, someone who may be more of a taker and not a giver, there may be a point where it may not be wise to share all of your process, because that individual could potentially come back and try to somehow use your sensitivity in a way to get What what he or she was looking for. So I would, I would caution to use those sensitive skills that we have, that sensitivity that we have to kind of determine who’s your audience and and, and if what does your audience need to really convey the message? There are going to be times when you explain your process, or someone explains their process, and people completely get and they’re like, Oh, thanks. No problem. I will I will adjust accordingly. There are others who, when you try to explain your process, may say, we’ll start picking at your process and and suggesting you would deal with your process rather than address their request and say that gracious, no. So I would caution on that

Catherine A. Wood 39:05
that’s interesting. Yeah, that’s such a fascinating concept, because I guess what I’m hearing you say is that some people might interpret a tendency to put your process on loudspeaker, as if your decision is up for negotiation, when I actually don’t mean it like that at all. I have clearly made my mind up, and I’m trying to share my my thinking with you, but I could appreciate that for those who perhaps aren’t as comfortable with their decision, or maybe they’re 90% of the way there in being kind of clear on their decision, that there may be some room for negotiation that they hadn’t intended to open up themselves to.

Jane Lawicki 39:53
And I think again, that idea of that kind of the first rule of communication. Know your audience, so. To know and understand and use your empathic skills to kind of read where the person is coming from. So you, again, may not want to put everything on the table.

Catherine A. Wood 40:18
Interesting, yeah, that’s that’s helpful. Well, that makes me curious. What other what other rules of communication you live by?

Jane Lawicki 40:30
I think, I think you know again, I think it’s being sensitive individuals wanting to listen is really important. I think listening is an amazing skill and talent, and it comes naturally to many of us, but to know when the listening is too much, and to know again, how to kind of maybe conclude that conversation in a way that it’s a positive for both people, but it hasn’t gone on too long. We’ve all known what it’s like to cook something too long, to take too long to accomplish a task, and the task doesn’t come out as well as it could have. So I think you know, know your audience, listen to that individual, and listen to yourself and then, and I think in many ways, work to know yourself before you have encounters, so that you can speak your truth and speaking your truth in a way that’s diplomatic, that recognizes your audience and recognizing who you’re speaking with.

Catherine A. Wood 41:52
So I’m so I’m curious, how does, how does this conversation, how is everyday diplomacy play a role in your work now, is it? Is it a something you teach on? Is it something? Yeah, how is it part of your communications strategy work?

Jane Lawicki 42:15
Think it just kind of baked in, in some ways. I think, you know, I think as we learn to know ourselves a little bit more, it becomes something. I will listen to a client and hear his or her thoughts on a topic, A, B and C, which will draw questions out from me. In some ways, I want to learn more. I want to understand more. And when I have a sense of what’s where that person is coming from, when I have a sense of what might be needed, I can offer in a diplomatic manner some suggestions and recommendations, and I can also know, hopefully, what I can and cannot accomplish. I did have a situation once where a client didn’t know exactly what she wanted, and so it was my experience where I had to say, this is what I can offer. Is this what you’re looking for? I think to get that clarity as well.

Catherine A. Wood 43:21
Yeah, I mean, I’m appreciating that sometimes clients come to us not knowing what they need, and that by being again question askers and and good at sensing other people’s needs and objectives, that we can not only help them clarify what they’re saying, but then also see if there’s kind of a match between what we provide and what they’re looking for and and then kind of unearth what’s possible together, which I think is such a fun, a fun aspect of doing business, right? It’s like a creative it’s a Creative Conversation. It’s not necessarily a one size fits all.

Jane Lawicki 44:04
No, I think that’s the part of the Win Win process, you know? So I think that that really works. And I’m curious, you know? I think we’d mentioned earlier a little bit about stories and analogies and metaphors, kind of recognizing and I think it’s where your audience, your client, your person, your friend, your family, where what’s their story, where they’re coming from, and how does it relate to the situation? I find that I will often in the back of my mind, try to find some kind of analogy for the particular situation right now and then. That helps, in some ways, for me to identify where the next topic, conversation, situation step goes. So I’m trying to think, if I can think of an example of. Someone is unclear about what they’re looking for, we ask those kind of inquisitive questions, asking for help, kind of get some clarity. And then somewhere along the line, there might be an analogy or a story that you can share that helps solidify the situation and the circumstance.

Catherine A. Wood 45:22
You know, I’m appreciating that this conversation feels very like very polished, like it’s the consequence of many years of learned lessons and learned experiences and and these are kind of like the gems, right? The like gems on all the way on the other side of the journey. And I’m imagining it, it. It really took you something to get here. I

Jane Lawicki 45:56
find it interesting that you think there’s gems at the end of the journey, which is a good analogy, by the way that I, that I, I don’t know, I think that the journey is something we it’s it’s life that we go through. I think I’m just trying to think of how I can explain I think we all have points in our life where something doesn’t go as planned, had a dream or a vision that somehow collapsed. I think we hear a lot about in the importance of accepting and recognizing failure in our lives. I can think of maybe a failed relationship that didn’t work out, or a failed opportunity, professional opportunity that didn’t come to pass, and how that forced me to pivot in some ways, and to learn the lessons I think. You know, as empathic individuals, we are very aware of our world around us, but then we really need to get to know ourselves and get to know what was it in that relationship that we were looking for, and why did it not work out? What was it that we wanted in that opportunity, that job, that professional experience that didn’t work out, and why and and what do I need to learn about myself so that I can pivot and start a new, start afresh. You know, I think again, many famous individuals talk about having failed and then coming back,

Catherine A. Wood 47:47
yeah, and I think bringing a sense of curiosity and learning to those experiences versus bringing a sense of guilt or over responsibility, you know, like something as empaths, we’re we’re very well practiced in being overly responsible, making everything our fault, taking 100% responsibility, which is Wonderful, and it doesn’t always necessarily make space for forgiveness and integration, and so I’m just hearing, yeah, I’m hearing, I’m hearing kind of the it’s a it’s a hard it’s a hard journey. It’s not always rainbows and butterflies.

Jane Lawicki 48:41
You know, I think the difficulties and journeys makes life richer. I think that had I not had challenges here or there in different ways, a relationship that didn’t work out, a job that didn’t turn out to be what I had hoped it would be, had I not had those experiences, I wouldn’t have been forced to look inward and looking inward and getting to know myself, getting to know who I am, what my values are, what I My strengths are, what my weak weaknesses are. My weakness, in many ways, was learning, was learning how to say no. So I’ve had to learn how to to say no. Graciously, had I not had the challenges, I wouldn’t have the rich life. You know, you think about a gem if we go and kind of do that, you know, how is a diamond? A diamond in the rough is not very attractive. It requires a lot of cutting and balance cutting by a by a high authority to be able to really come to the splendor that we recognize it as. So not that I met a gem yet, but hope to someday be polished. Mm.

Catherine A. Wood 50:01
Yes, yeah, yeah. And it’s so interesting. The piece about I think that that’s really true for so many of us, like learning the gracious no is such a necessary and important part of our growth journey to success and prosperity and and I think we need to learn the gracious no at every level of success, because I think it looks different at different levels of of success when you’re playing with when you’re playing at different levels of business and growth and connections, right? There’s some people that it’s a lot easier to say no to than than others. And how do you kind of embrace the gracious No, regardless of the the level of of success or, yeah, the level of success ladder you’re at, right? I think it looks different.

Jane Lawicki 51:00
Well, I think that’s true, and I also think there’s a cost in some ways, with the gracious No. Things might go fine and and the relationship continues. There will be times when you’ve done your part, you’ve done your side of the street, but the response isn’t as much as what we would hope for, and having to then kind of pay the price of lost relationship or temporarily, a temporary impasse, if you will. And I think, is recognizing that we can only do our part. Again, that idea that if I have a boundary here and say, I’m willing to let this go, if I hold this boundary, it doesn’t mean you don’t care. It means that I can’t do it for someone else. I can’t, I have to, I can’t, I can’t fix, manage or control another person. I can only allow my growth and that person’s growth from natural consequences. So I hope that makes sense. I’m thinking of your idea of recognizing analogies in some ways, and that sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, and we want to be Win Win people, and that’s why we do what we do, and that’s why we do everyday. Diplomacy is our nature, and it’s so much of our life is enriched when we have win wins we know ourselves and love others. Yeah,

Catherine A. Wood 52:50
well, that feels like a beautiful place to end, because I think that that really, that’s so true, and it’s so, I think, crucial to the foundation of of looking at negotiation and diplomacy through the lens of how it’s in service of the you and the me and the greater good, right, like how it can create this triple win, and knowing that we really where we come from, right, that we come from this place of love and service and contribution, and we get to be responsible for it also. Well, as we wrap, as we wrap for today, Jane, I love inviting all of my guests to share what’s made the difference for you in becoming the prosperous Empath you are. We’re

Jane Lawicki 53:41
excited about this question a bit, and although I could recommend a book or an idea, I think for me, taking the time, respecting the time for prayer and meditation and to have that quiet in our very, very busy world, you know, our devices blink at us Are you know, every technology calls to us, but taking that time aside and making it a priority, I think, is really key for me, at least when I’m at my best, when I’ve had my quiet, meditation, prayer time, when I have had that Quiet, I’m at a much better place to love others with respect as well as value my boundaries.

Catherine A. Wood 54:29
Beautiful. Love that, Jane. Thank you so much. It was so lovely to have you on the show, and I really appreciate Well, I’m still appreciating your loft.

Jane Lawicki 54:42
Mm, Thank you, Ken, it’s been a privilege, and look forward to continued connection. Thank you. Bye.