Unmasking Masculinity: How to Create Emotionally Satisfying Relationships with Shana James

Catherine A. Wood 00:02
Shana, hi Shayna. Welcome to the podcast.

Shana James 00:04
Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s so good to see you.

Catherine A. Wood 00:07
It’s so good to be with you. I was mentioning this to Shana beforehand, but I’ve been delaying having Shayna on the podcast for at least a year and a half since her book came out, because I was wanting to finish the book before recording this episode, and Alas, I have yet to finish, but I’m sure I’ll be inspired to pick it up after today. So Shaina and I have known each other for many years, so I’m sure this will be a really beautiful conversation. And by way of getting us started, Shana, I’d love to invite you to share your pronouns and a little bit about your story, because I think we all learn best through story.

Shana James 00:43
I love that, so I use she, her pronouns, and, yeah, my story. I mean, I started. Where do we want to start? I mean, I’m thinking of, right, the prosperous Empath and business, as well as heart and soul. And so, you know, just thinking about 20 years ago or so when I started coaching and facilitating workshops, and many of them in the beginning, actually, all of them were for men, and I really got this window into the world of men, and I think as an empath, I started feeling and seeing things that the world like we don’t often see in the world. I think most people don’t see in the world, right, the what’s behind the curtain or the facade and what’s going on with men, and I quickly realized that I could use my gifts of empathy and compassion to be an ally for men and to coach and support men to have relationships With women, you know, as like, almost like a human practice, because I found that a lot of men, I support men circles. I think they’re incredibly powerful. I think, you know, they benefit most men I know. And also men would come home from these circles or workshops, and still there’s like a lost in translation sometimes if they’re in heterosexual relationships. And so yeah, I started coaching back then, and have been doing it for a long time and just loving it and loving getting to see and support people to have the lives and relationships that you know deeply meaningful and exciting for them.

Catherine A. Wood 02:47
I love that, and I’m I’m actually thinking back to how you and I originally met one another, and Shaina was a leader for our listeners. Shayna was a leader in a program that I registered for, and thinking back on that program, most of the leaders were men, and you were one of the female voice, one of the few female voices in the room, which is why I think I probably appreciated your contribution so much, because you brought a lens to the conversation That often felt missing for me as an empath,

Shana James 03:22
yeah, right. I think as empaths, it doesn’t have to, just doesn’t have to be women, but as empaths, right, I think we need other empaths and other people who are sensitive and permeable and right, just kind of aware of the many, many layers that we’re taking in information on

Catherine A. Wood 03:47
totally and I mean seeing and sensing the body reactions and the feelings in the room and the responses And the somatic energies that aren’t always caught by non non sensing folks

Shana James 04:05
very well said, Yes, um,

Catherine A. Wood 04:07
and I guess I’m curious how, how that necessarily applies to your work. I mean, I think the work you do, and have done for the past 20 years is really interesting, because I don’t know a lot of female coaches who have historically and principally worked with men, and I know that you’re kind of bridging out from that, and I’m excited to chat more about that. And like, why men?

Shana James 04:34
That’s a great question. Well, in some ways, when I started these, you know, facilitating these workshops with men, I started realizing that, you know, in the moment we were dealing with these one on one relationships, but I started thinking about the world and the issues in the world, and that when men aren’t seen. Seen or understood or cared for or loved or met. The issues are big and dangerous. And you know for themselves, the suicide rate is four times higher, approximately, you know, than for women. I don’t actually know about people who are gender non conforming or non binary. I would imagine that suicide rate is pretty high as well, but you know that. So there was the self harm that comes, and then also the domination and harm to the world that can happen. You know, when people are hurting, they are more likely to hurt others. So think there was seeing that, and also my own history of having a father who, you know, my mom wears the pants still in the family in that thing, and is often really mean and attacking and critical of him. And so, you know, I think that all came together for me in a sort of in a calling to be an ally for men and and I think I, yeah, I fell in love with men in some of those first courses and moments where I got to see behind the masks and facades. What

06:19
did you see,

Shana James 06:22
I saw. I saw like vulnerable humanness and preciousness, and a way of like I could see the layer of protection and attempting to fit into the world and be seen as powerful and desirable, and that underneath that, there was what all humans Have, which is vulnerability. And I don’t know a kind of it’s funny to put this, to try to put this into words. I think I just saw how well meaning, and like these men just wanting good for people and the world, and especially men who take on a sort of nice guy role, because there is so much respect for others and care and, you know, wanting to be kind and loving and supportive, but then losing parts of themselves or shutting down parts of themselves. And I could feel that, Oh, my God, these men who play small are the ones I want to have a lot more power. You know, they’re the ones I want to be leading and guiding and mentoring. And if I could support that, that would feel incredibly meaningful,

Catherine A. Wood 08:01
or something really heartbreaking hearing you share that I mean beautiful and touching, but also really heartbreaking, because it certainly makes me think of people close to me in my own life who have those relationship dynamics, and I see these beautiful men in heterosexual relationships who are shut down and disconnected from themselves and their wants and their desires and their potential. Yeah,

Shana James 08:34
yep, agreed. And you know, it can be very controversial right, in the, in our world, men have a lot of power. But I also know from doing this for so long that men often suffer alone. So, you know, there are few, a few men, or, I mean, many, if you look at right, you know, in the in the world, in the United States, there are, there are many men who have a lot of power. There are also many men who are incredibly powerful, but like you said, have it sort of tucked away. Were never taught how to be powerful in a way that they could respect themselves. And so I think that tends to be the men I work with, the men, I think, the men who come to me, I think tend to be very empathic, very sensitive, very caring, and have often left parts of themselves behind.

Catherine A. Wood 09:41
So for for your clients, I mean, I’m just appreciating, I’m appreciating this conversation in conjunction with a couple guests I had on the podcast recently, because I had Yeah, and I’m wondering if you know them actually, because you. I should connect if you haven’t, but we had a beautiful conversation about redefining masculinity and and it was with, you know, two dudes who are doing men’s work, so it’s a very different perspective, but they shared some really common themes that I’m hearing you speak to as well, which is this, just this really overarching theme around doing it alone, yeah, and not allowing support. And so as coaches, we can’t coach people who don’t want to change themselves and and so I guess I’m just curious what the path to you, what the path to to your clients, finding you and being willing to open themselves up to support and being supported looks

Shana James 10:48
like, looks like, Yeah, I know many people find it surprising that men reach out to me. And there are many men who feel like, you know, there are too many women in the world, and men are raised boys are raised by women and taught by women, and so it it has been controversial, but I think the men, some of the men who come to me, feel safer that they will Be it’s funny, some men feel more judged and criticized by women, right? Some men feel like women are safer because they can open up in this emotional way that they see women opening up and they haven’t seen men do it, or haven’t participated in that. But I think the journey is often when the pain of relationships, their sex life or love life, not, you know, not feeling exciting or meaningful, not having the love or the sex or the connection or the intimacy they want, outweighs then the the tendency, like you said, to not ask for help or not ask for support. I mean, I think I make it very clear. I think a lot of men listen to my podcast and come that way, and I’m very clear that I am a loving, caring, compassionate, non judgmental woman, which I think is also more rare than I would like to see it these days. And I’ve had people recently too. I mean, since I wrote the book on a sex I’ve had more couples come to me. And sometimes it’s the woman who brings the partnership in a heterosexual relationship, sometimes it’s the man. So that’s been interesting to see, too, that there are some men out there who are more of the feelers in the relationship, or more of the ones who are sensitive or want intimacy and connection, sometimes because their woman partner, or, you know, their wife has shut down those needs or desires a long time ago and felt like they were impossible, so she was just gonna, like, barrel forward and get it done and do the thing and be the role, you know, of mother and wife and and sometimes, because she was never taught. I mean, I don’t know about you, and facilitating leading workshops, but I was really surprised, because I also created a series of workshops called the authentic women experience. And when I started leading those, after having facilitated for men, I realized we the first night, we’re sitting in a circle, and I thought, okay, we’re going to have a vulnerability circle and connect. This is going to be a piece of cake, because we’re all women, so everyone’s just going to be right in there getting vulnerable. And it did not go that way. I was really surprised, and I had this moment of realizing, oh my god, most of us aren’t taught that it’s okay to bring that vulnerability and to be seen in more of those shadow places or the parts that we don’t, you know, love or appreciate about ourselves. So it definitely feels like more of a, you know, beyond just the male gender, it feels like a way of our world these days.

Catherine A. Wood 14:18
I’m the first one to admit in my mastermind communities, when my clients bring requests for support around breakdowns in their marriage, that I used to be, you know, number one criticizer In my own relationship, because that was the way that I knew to communicate my feelings and as a sensitive Empath with such big feelings, like growing up, they never felt safe to express. Because many people in my life didn’t know how to hold my feelings without trying to fix them, yes, and so the kind of the critical lens where I didn’t have to make it about. Me, I could point the finger over there and speak to what was missing or wrong. And as someone who’s so perfectionistic and such a great judge of what’s missing or wrong, that always felt more accessible and honestly hearing you share that I’m I’m really present, that so much of the shift in our relationship, and I’m not solely responsible for this at all, but the change that I made was being willing to put down that critical lens and start speaking from the underbelly, speaking from my feelings, consistently and reliably. And I I have these vivid memories of, you know, wanting, wanting my partner to be the one, wanting him to be vulnerable, wanting him to share his feelings like and yet I was so unwilling, you know, I was the first one to point to his own inadequacies versus acknowledge my own. Yeah,

Shana James 16:00
yeah. I mean, that really is what the the book on a sex is about. The whole first third of the book is about honesty, and how do we be honest in a way that creates connection from that deeper layer and vulnerability, right? Because you could say, well, like I’m just just saying it like it is. You’re being an asshole. On the one hand, I’m not going to say it’s not honest that you’re feeling that way, but you’ve then layered it with judgments and assessments. And, you know, it’s, it’s not objective that someone’s being an asshole. It’s more of a conglomeration that, you know, we’ve we’ve labeled based on a set of behaviors, based on how it’s impacting us, and so really going back to if we want to be connected to a partner, if we want to thrive, if we want to have an amazing intimate and sex life for the rest of our lives, that I believe We have to get to that deeper level of honesty with each other, and it’s vulnerable. It’s way more vulnerable, you know, than pointing the finger, because then we have to actually open up about what’s really going on for us.

Catherine A. Wood 17:15
Well, I’m curious about that. So for your clients, who are more of the sensors and feelers and are willing to, you know, lean into speaking from that felt sense, yeah, how, how do you, how do you create safety in a relationship dynamic where their female identifying partners are shut down or are in that, just that you know, tactical mode of what needs to be done, what needs to be handled.

Shana James 17:47
Yes, well, I’ve been finding that meeting separately, separately and together with them, has been really helpful, because I can hear from their female identifying partner. You know, it’s not private, because basically we, you know, we okay, we’re willing to share whatever they share with me, with their partner. But there’s a way that people protect less, or try to or, you know, or let go of I don’t want to hurt my partner, and I don’t want to all of that, like when they’re just with me. So oftentimes, when I speak to a woman, there’s the layer of protection or some more of that control, and then I just slow it down and get vulnerable with them and ask them, you know, okay, you know, are you willing to look a little bit deeper and see what’s underneath here? Because oftentimes I do see that when we’re trying to control or manage or when we are feeling more of that tightness or rigidity that it’s not benefiting us either. It doesn’t feel good, right? It’s not a way to walk around in the world where we’re like, oh, I’m loving life. It’s usually a way to walk around in the world where, yes, we have a little more control, or we’re not falling apart, but we’re also not having as much joy or pleasure or delight as we could be or peace even, you know. Yeah, so I think there’s a just checking in and going slowly and and helping them see like I’m not judging and I am not perfect, and I struggle with my own desire to control, and you know, all the feelings that are underneath that. And I like, you had a family where I was like, Oh, you’re fine, you’re fine, you’re fine, you know, you’re fine. And I was like, I don’t feel fine under here. Right, and having to learn to navigate all of those feelings and to be able to see them in others and not make any I never claim to be right. You know, it’s always an inquiry or a curiosity, a question like, Okay, do you think there’s more underneath that? I’m not telling you how you are, but I’m inquiring with you in a way that is compassionate and loving and right self a lot of self compassion in there.

Catherine A. Wood 20:33
Oh, man, I could make this whole conversation about me, Shana, I’m not gonna go there. I do not have my husband’s consent for that. Okay, we

Shana James 20:42
can talk more after

Catherine A. Wood 20:45
but let’s maybe, let’s shift the conversation, because you’ve been in this work for 20 years. You’ve been doing this for a long, long time, and I know that your work is evolving, and where you’re feeling called and inspired has been changing, and so I’m curious what’s been emerging for you in what you’re feeling called and inspired too.

Shana James 21:11
Yeah. Well, so I have a child who’s gender non conforming, and so it’s been really interesting to be in a very having been in a very heterosexual, dynamically created world and business, and then to see my kid, who is just all the genders, all the feelings, all the like she’s Yeah, she uses She her pronouns right now. And so I’m imagining that as part of what started, you know, cracking this the windshield a little bit on, okay, I’m just working, or I’m mainly working with men, but I also years ago, you know, like I said, created workshops for women. So there’s always been a ques. The past 10 years or so, there’s been a question of, when, when am I going to do that again? Or when am I going to focus on women again? And I kept asking the question, as you know, I don’t know if this is an empathic thing or a spiritual thing, but I’m often like, is it time, you know, asking for guidance, asking for support. And it wasn’t until last fall, I think. And then I sort of got that thing of, oh yeah, like even my podcast, man alive, people of all genders listen, and it’s not, it’s not really just for men. You know, the topics I think apply to most people. I just do focus the questions toward helping men get the resources and support that they don’t often get. But when I think about going deeper into humanity, and you know, in the course that that you and I were in together, where I was facilitating, there was like a term we called shared reality around helping people really get each other’s worlds beyond gender, beyond, I don’t know, beyond roles, right? This, this sense of what is it like to be human, and what is it like to be human together? And that is coming in, I think, more and more for me, that, yeah, that’s so much of this. It’s like, I don’t I know that there’s a danger too in collapsing everything too much and saying, Oh, we’re all the same. But I think there’s also pain when we don’t see the humanity in all of us, or don’t look for that. If that makes sense,

Catherine A. Wood 23:42
I think that makes perfect sense. I think that we often kind of create these like implicit assumptions, that if we surround ourselves with people like us, or people with women like there will be understanding, shared understanding. And, you know, it takes planks to create safety in any community, in any space, in any family or community dynamic. Yeah, and I don’t know about you, but I think about emotional safety a lot these days, because I I don’t think I always had it since entering transformational work, and I’ve noticed its foundation.

Shana James 24:29
I love that you bring that point up, emotional safety. You don’t feel like you’ve had it like in, in a lot of the transformational work, you don’t feel like, feel like it was there. In some it

Catherine A. Wood 24:39
felt missing. Interesting.

Shana James 24:43
Yeah. And as I think about that, and I think about working with people, whether they’re single or in relationships, I think part of the work that I try to do with people is how to find their own way of creating more. Safety for themselves. I can’t say all right, because I do think that there, there are external forces or people can create situations where it’s, you know, objectively not safe if they’re being judged or attacked, if they’re judging attacking, all of that. And I try to support people to find a place in themselves, where even if someone not in a power dynamic, right, not in a teacher dynamic, but say, in a relationship, if they’re being judged or attacked or blamed, that the person doesn’t have to align with that as, oh, well, that’s really who I am. I’m a piece of shit, or I’m not good enough, or I’m not lovable, right? That it’s more of this inner sovereignty of okay. And I can see that you’re struggling with how I am. I’m okay over here, it hurts to hear you say that about me, and I can find that strength in myself. And as you’re speaking to the emotional safety piece, right? Like, how do we, how do we actually create that for each other, whether it’s a romantic relationship, a parenting relationship, a business relationship, I think that is so important to welcome what people are sensing and feeling and to not negate it, but to actually get curious and explore it. And I know that can be harder, especially what can be harder in a romantic context, because it feels more personal. Can be harder in a business context, because it feels like, okay, we’re, you know, we got to get down to work here. This, this is not real, or it’s the soft stuff. So, right? We’re working against a lot of enculturation to be to value that

Catherine A. Wood 26:45
I really appreciate that distinction, that it’s a both, and that creative, emotional safety is as much about creating creating it in the relationship or the community, as well as creating it for both yourself and for the other or the others. And it reminds me of one of my I don’t know, one of the most simple practices that my coach ever gave me that has made the most profound difference over the years in my relationships. And it is a literally as easy as when something someone says hurts me to be able to give voice to that by starting with Ouch.

Shana James 27:32
I love that one

Catherine A. Wood 27:35
Ouch that hurt so hard to learn Shayna and mind blowingly impactful in the relationship dynamic and in the communication, right? Rather than having to jump to defend myself or or shut their response down or have an argumentative angle, to just respond from my own experience, yes,

Shana James 27:58
with an ouch, yeah, it’s beautiful. Like, the Ouch, the pause, the just sharing this, the impact, like, Oh, I feel like I just got punched in the gut, or, or I just felt my gut clenched. It’s probably a better way to say than I feel like I just got punched in the gut, because then it brings the other person in, right? But something that just acknowledges and slows it down and pauses before we get into the blame, shame, attack, protect, whatever, all the all those cycles and all the things we add to it. It’s so powerful to slow it down. I made a commitment up so I was divorced almost 12 years ago, and my ex and I co parent, and we, you know, moved states together like we’re still in it, and we have a really sweet dynamic and loving dynamic. And, you know, it took us a little while to get there. It wasn’t perfect, but there is a way where I just totally lost my train of thought. I’m gonna raise me okay? I want to go back and feel

Catherine A. Wood 29:14
something having to do with Ouch. Oh yeah. Haley, we’re gonna edit this out totally.

Shana James 29:22
Thank you. Okay, I’m just trying to think of where I wanted to go back to, right? The Ouch, the pot. Okay, I got it. So when I got divorced, I made a commitment to myself that was similar to the Okay, I’m going to say ouch when something happens like that. I committed that. I was just going to pause and I was not going to open my mouth until I could say something that would either lovingly forward the conversation or create more connection, rather than less. And I’ve not. Perfect, but I will say that that specific commitment and the simplicity of it, for the most part, that it shifted my whole relationship with conflict and those dynamics, because I could just, you know, there’s a Viktor Frankl quote between stimulus and response. There is a space right in that space, I never remember the exact words I need to memorize it, but in that basically, in that space, there’s choice, and that choice is the way I see it, it’s We either go down the downward spiral or up the upward spiral, right? And so many of my clients are shocked when they realize that in just saying ouch or saying nothing and not going down the downward spiral, the gravitational pull right that happens in the downward spiral that disconnects people for days or weeks or years or months, or you know that there’s suddenly this ground that they can, they can build on and become more loving and caring and connected. And so just by pausing or saying ouch and not adding all of our judgments and protection and hurt to that situation, it’s incredibly powerful.

Catherine A. Wood 31:17
I never know where these conversations are going to go, and a theme that’s emerging from ours that I’m really appreciating is this, this commonality around pausing or slowing down, you know, you mentioned earlier around with some of your relationship dynamics with your clients, Like you just slow down the conversation and just how much can emerge when we when we pause, yeah,

Shana James 31:51
yep, I even had that insight with my parenting this morning, or actually, like a way that I would Love to support my kid when I see her interact with other kids, and, you know, there’s a lot of awkwardness in her age. She’s 12, and I see her say things sometimes that other people sort of like bristle at. And I’m realizing like, she’s, she’s fast, she has a fast brain, she’s She’s hilarious, but not everybody’s ready for that, you know. And I this morning, I just thought, Oh, what if I worked with her on that kind of pause and slowing down to notice what’s happening, right? Pay attention to the dynamics, not trying to change who she is, but to help her have a little bit more awareness of when I say that. You know, the impact maybe wasn’t what I wanted it to okay, how do I clean that up? Or, how do I create more connection if I broke a connection? Or how do I then pay attention for the next time to see, oh, that person is a little bit more sensitive or doesn’t really do well when I make jokes. And this person over here, oh, we can just, you know, make jokes and laugh till the cows come home or whatever. Right to to have that emotional, relational awareness, I think, takes a lot of time to build. And many of us, as adults, I would say most of us are still learning that.

Catherine A. Wood 33:21
And isn’t it interesting how so many of us crave deeper connection, more of an inclination to lean in, and it’s that willingness to perhaps lean back and slow down that creates that very experience that I think so many of us are craving,

Shana James 33:44
yes, and I’m thinking of your wisdom before we got on right about polarities. And there’s the polarity of kind of leaning in and leaning back at the same time, which seems impossible, but I think there is like, Oh, what if I lean into being more open or vulnerable or pausing right? I kind of over lean into what would create connection. And maybe some of that leaning back is, oh, I’m gonna slow it down or listen differently or get curious or right? It seems like both are happening.

Catherine A. Wood 34:24
Well, I’m mindful of the time and I want to honor yours, but I guess I’m just curious. Maybe, if there’s a gem or a truth bomb to leave our audience with around like, how the hell do you apply this because it sounds so beautiful. And, you know, I have no doubt that this episode is really going to speak to some of my listeners, and I would just love to leave them with perhaps maybe one of your favorite practices that you offer your own. Clients around how to how to apply some of these lessons to their own relationships, their own communication and understanding, creating deeper understanding. The

Shana James 35:10
one that’s coming up for me right now is the simple practice of noticing, right and just speaking and noticing so that you don’t have to know what’s really going on. You don’t have to analyze, you don’t have to have any assessments. You don’t have to be right, but you can notice I right, or I seem, or I feel, or like, Oh, I’m feeling defensive right now, or I noticed my stomach just got tied in knots. Or we seem like we’re really rushing here. We seem like we don’t really we’re not, we’re not sure if we’re on the same page, right? Or we seem a little like we’re butting heads or and using the word seem can be, I think, less threatening. So if you’re going to do it for someone else, for someone else, like you seem a little nervous, and then I always suggest, is that true, or you seem like you’re pulling away? Is that true? Um, so I think it takes all of this sort of gobble, the goop, the like feelings and, you know, non verbal, some of the things that we’ve been talking about, and it just again, it brings people to be able to come back to the present moment instead of sometimes past resentments and stories we have about each other or future and fears and how’s this going to turn out, and what’s the impact going to be to come back to this moment and see, all right, can we connect? Can we be on the same page or on the same team, and from there, you know, what do we need? And sometimes just the noticing again, it’s let it’s not threatening. It’s not like, I noticed you’re being an asshole, right? It’s, it’s observable. I notice your cheeks are flushed. I notice you’re crossing your arms, like, is there? Are you okay? Is there something going on over there? So I would say that’s one of my, one of the ways to bring that empathy into the everyday relationship.

Catherine A. Wood 37:24
I love that you said, bring the empathy into the relationship, because that’s what I was hearing, how it’s an empaths gift to be able to notice and sense and perceive and to speak it versus react from it. Totally, totally. Thank you for that. Jen. Last question, what do you think has supported you in becoming the beautiful, thriving, prosperous Empath that you are,

Shana James 37:52
I would say valuing being of service, or, you know, creating something that I think benefits people over my own fear and insecurity, because I think as an empath, I tend to go inward with Is there something wrong with me? Am I too much? Am I whatever that whole internal negative self talk is? And continuing to put one foot in front of the other and just choose I’m going to be of service more than I’m going to listen to those voices, I think is, is a big part of it.

Catherine A. Wood 38:34
Gina, thank you so much for taking the time. So lovely to have you on the show.

Shana James 38:38
Thank you so much for having me. You.